I try to act like it doesn't bother me. But, I guess on some level, way down deep, it still affects me more than I would like to admit. I go through times when I don't consciously think about it too much, but little things , like funerals, always seem to bring it back to the surface again.
The other day Tyler, my grandson, asked me something about my mother. He had her confused with somebody else. I had to tell him that he didn't know my mother. In fact, my own children don't know my parents.
Some questions that keep coming back to me are these: When it's all said and done, who was really to blame for this situation? Could it have been avoided or fixed? What's the point?
I am sure that my parent's answers would be quite different than my answers.
Their answers, I am sure, would read something like this:
Who is really to blame?
Gary, of course. He left the faith. He caused division in the Lord's body. He followed false teachers and was led astray. He became a false teacher himself and led many others away from the one true church. The Bible teaches us to disfellowship, and have nothing to do with people like him. We are only being true to God's commands.
(If my parents ever moved to Columbia, I know a preacher that they would just love)
Sorry, I digress...
My defense is really unimportant for two reasons. First of all, my parents will never hear it, read it, or accept it. Secondly, because the only ones who ever read this blog are people who really know me, and love me, and already know that the accusation against me are false. But just in case, by some outside chance, there is a stray reader who is aware of the situation, and sympathetic to my parent's type of religion and thinking, let me set the record straight.
As God is my witness I have never disfellowshiped or shunned anyone.
Jesus taught me that sinners should not throw stones at sinners.
I never left the Faith. My faith in Jesus Christ is stronger now than it has ever been.
I did however leave a set of man made rules, rituals, and traditions that many have ignorantly deemed "The Faith".
I did not cause any division, I simply left the in-fighting and division that already existed.
I did not follow any teacher. My ideas are my own. I have had them since I was a teenager. I just kept them to myself because I knew what it would cost me.
If by chance I have taught any one, I pray that I taught them only to ask questions and think for themselves. The Bible belongs to each of us. Ask for help when you need it, but never let anyone tell you what it says, because more than likely the preople you ask don't know either.
I know that my critic are out there. They poke their typing fingers into some of the local blogs every once in a while.
Like I have said many times before, I would love to have the chance to actually face my accusers. I would love to sit down face to face and talk about this stuff over a cup of coffee. But in all reality, I know that will probably never happen. So, if all I can get is a negative comment or two on this blog, I will accept it. I will take what I can get.
Here is your chance. You can obviously remain anonymous. I will not fault you for that. I really do want to hear your questions, comments, and criticisms.
337/31
My heart knows but my head says are you sure??
9 years ago
30 comments:
Gary,
Our purpose here on this earth is to teach Gods word to those that will hear. We know that there are those who think they can judge our hearts and our intentions but there is only one that knows what we feel, think and do. He is the only one that really matters. Those that want to cause trouble and point fingers are the ones that will eventually answer for themselves. You know and he knows where your heart is and he is the only one that you will have to answer to for your commitment to teaching his word. For those who are so quick to judge, I hope they can find an inner peace within themselves to understand that we are all Gods children. Where is the compassion and love that God extends to each one of us? I pray for you, your family,your church, and all Gods children in your community. Lay it at his feet and he will take care of it.
In Christian Love,
Peggy
Thanks Peggy,
You don't count because you know me and love me.
But it is still nice to hear from you.
I love you too
Gary
Matthew 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."
Matthew 9:11-13 "When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, 'Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?' On hearing this, Jesus said, 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice. For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
I really don't know what you are talking about, but from the lines on the screen I'm going to guess you are not going to the "right" congregation any more. Matthew 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field." The "kingdom of heaven" is not where we think it always is, and some people think they have it in their building but Matthew 21:43 says "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit." Yes, that was a threat against the Jews, but it is still a threat against congregations today. Just produce fruit, in your own way, and let the "Master of All" judge His own servants. Keep the faith.
Unless you have been involved in a church that was torn apart by this new way of thinking i don't think you could possibly understand. This is what I witnessed. A church over 100 years old. An elder who was able to convince the other elders to go along, and a constant easing in of changes that led many people even elderly widows to feel they had to worship somewhere else. Some had been there 50 plus years. Members who had been friends for many many years now have a wedge driven between their friendship because they had to choose to go or stay. Even worse families have been torn apart. All i could ever ask is why didn't the people who changed their minds about what they believed just leave and start a new church with a new name.
Anonymous,
Thank you for your comment, and your honesty.
The congregation I left was over 100 years old. The only differance was that one elder was convincing the others to squash any and all changes.
Tradition and comfort are not wrong. I agree with you that people should not be forsed to sit through changes in worship styles that they are not comfortable with.
However, if they happen to teach and insist that their old way is the only way, and all other ways are sinful, then it is time to speak up and shake up their comfort zone.
Sadly, in most cases, leaving is proably the only option. Starting a new congregation, for the sake of peace is not splitting the Lord's body or dividing the church.
Ben,
Thanks for your comments as well. I need the encouragment.
Gary
But here is my point and I do want to be kind and honestly want to hear your answers. Wasn't it unfair that the people who remained faithful to their beliefs were the ones who had to leave and find new places to worship. Shouldn't it have been the leaders and members who wanted the changes , which apparently you did the right thing and leave, but that was not the case in the church i speak of. The elders remained firm in what they were going to do and made it clear to the members if they weren't happy then they would need to leave.
Anonymous,
Wow, that is a tough one.
I don't know the details of course, and I honestly mean no disrespect, but I can only wonder what I would have done in this situation?
If I were a leader in this situation
Would I have:
Kept things the same for the sake of those who are only comfortable worshipping one way - or -
Would I have:
Went ahead and incorperated the changes for the sake of growth and new comers.
It's a tough call that I could not make without knowing the make up and attitude of the congregation.
But, knowing my track record I would have probably went with option number 2, but I pray that i would have at least done it slowly, and with a ton of patience, love, and understanding.
I am sorry that your situation did not turn out well. I would love to hear about it.
Gary
I hope we are "talking as friends over coffee". I was able to stay at my congregation for several years as i watched changes come in and as each change came in I would study my Bible, pray for the correct answer and if i found it to not be unscriptural, i would either fully support it or remain neutral.But then one day when the question of baptism was really being tossed around,and I questioned why some of our members were worshipping with denominations, I was told by our minister that "baptism was very important but not essential,and that God could save you if he wanted to" an absolute fact of course but when i got home i sat and envisioned judgement day. Would one of my dear methodist friends tell Jesus that I told or even implied to them that they were safe in their unbaptized state. I could not handle that. I've wanted for a long time to be able to discuss issues and maybe understand the other side but usually blogs get so ugly and if this one turns to that direction i will stop immediately. I am sorry to read of your family division. I'm sure if your parents were totally devoted to the Lord's Church, their first reaction must of been a painful feeling of failure to teach their son the beliefs they hold strongly. I pray that you will 70 X 7 try to reunite even if your beliefs will never be the same.
Anonymous,
(My spell checker is messed up so please forgive my ignorance)
This is long so please be patient.
The trouble with us Christians is we have a tendency to get very emotional when it comes to our beliefs.
That's probably a good thing considering the fact that religion is a very emotional subject.
However, that emotion sometimes makes it very difficult to sit quietly over a cup coffee and have a heartfelt, honest discussion with a friend over something with which we strongly disagree.
Please believe me when i say, that is what I want more than anything.
I am probably going to disagree with you and say some things that you are not comfortable with, but please, please, please understand I mean no disrespect. I do not for one minute believe that I am right and you are wrong. I certainly do not believe that you must agree with me to be pleasing to God. The following is just my understanding:
If I understood you correctly: there where some changes (I assume you meant in worship styles) that you were not comfortable with, but after honestly searching the scriptures, you found that the changes were not a matter of doctrine persay, but merely of opinion and preferance.
Just that statment alone makes me your friend and brother for life.
You are a rare breed.
But, your conscience demanded that you draw the line when it came to worshipping with un-baptized Methodist. (you somehow feared that worshipping with them would give the impression that you approved of their unsaved condition)
The very fact that you called them "dear friends" is also a
plus in my book. (it shows your heart)
First let me ask a question for clarification:
Are these Methodist friends unbaptized, or are they just baptized differentally than you believe they should be?
Most of my dear Non-Church of Christ friends who profess to be Christians have indeed been baptized. In fact the subject of their baptizm is the exact reason that I left the main stream church of Christ in the first place. Let me explain;
We had a lady visit our church who was a very sincere Christian. She expressed a desire to become a member of our congregation. When asked abut her baptism, they (the elders) discovered that she had indeed been baptised, but in a baptist church.
When they asked her why she was baptised (a quick easy way to weed out the Baptist) she quickly replied, "because that is what God wanted me to do". "I was baptized out of obedience to God's will".
I cheered! What a perfect answer!
Sadly it was not good enough. They told her that she had to be rebaptized in a church of Christ building, by a church of Christ preacher, or she was not a true Christian.
I left and I have never been back.
I have found tha not all Methodist, Baptist, Presbitarians, etc... are unbaptized or unsaved. Most infact have a love for God's word and a desire to do his will just like we do.
I hope this starts a freindly discussion and not a heated debate.
Love Gary
i have no anger towards you or your opinion at all but i do have a 12 hour day ahead of me. I will get back with something i would like to discuss later. If you begin to feel anger let me know to stop.
Gary,
I've been following your comments back and forth. I also read your post twice. I'm sorry that your relationship with your parents has been severed. I understand your pain in that situation. Although mine has not been totally severed, and it isn't for the same reasons as yours, I too have a strained relationship with my father, and it's painful.
I have a question. Do you believe that profession of faith and Christ living within you is enough to be saved? I know that baptism is out of obedience, but what if the person professes but isn't baptized immediately? Just curious on your opinion. I feel like I know your answer, but something you said above made me second guess.
To introduce myself, I am best-friends with Amanda who works with Stephanie. Aren't you and Stephanie related?
Gary, i was hoping this blog stayed just between us so it is less confusing but here goes my question about the lady/baptism. if she chose a "conservative" church of christ to attend and apparently studied the doctrine enough to know she wanted to be a part of the church, why wouldn't she have wanted to be baptized again to make sure it was a scriptural baptism(for remission of sins). it wasn't like God asked her to build a huge boat or sacrifice her child.
Beaver Bunch,
Welcome! I feel like I already know you. It seems that we frequent the same Blogs.
I have long admired, respected, and agreed with many of your comments. It is a privilege to have you here.
As to your question:
I understand the context and concern of your question.
Answering the question adequately will take a little time and space.
Which I am more than willing to do, However, for now, let me just say that I believe baptism is important.
I also believe taking communion is important, loving your neighbor as yourself is important, and loving and being faithful to your spouse is important, etc...
I would probably question the sencerity of anyone who refused to do any of the above just to make the point that none of the above are realy required for salvation.
But, that being said, while I may be bold enough to question their sencerity, I would never be arrogant enough to question their salvation. That is between them and God.
Someone who has accepted Jesus, and is having their life transformed by his love and power is definatly in God's gracious hands (this will get me in lots of trouble) regardless of just how much they do or do not understand at the moment.
To me, Salvation is more of a process and a journey than a one time act. But that would take another page or two to explain.
I hope this helps a little.
I do not pretend to have all the answers. Please feel free to disagree. We can still be brothers and sisters in Christ if we disagree.
Gary
Anonymous,
Thanks for your patience I was tied up this afternoon and evening.
Let me try to answer your question.
Understand that the lady i was talking about was not drawn to the church because of it's doctrine. (she probably didn't even know what it was)
She was drawn to the love and fellowship of a close young adult Sunday morning Bible class. It was a very special group and she wanted to be a part of it.
She was actually willing to be rebaptized. (as a matter of fact, I think that she later was)
It was me who had the problem - not her.
In my eyes, what had just occured was the elders telling her that she had to be baptized to join the church - the very thing they were trying to condemned about her Baptist Baptism.
After much discussion it became very clear to me that their bottom line was this;
Baptist are not Christians even if they are baptized for the right reasons.
If she believed that she was baptized out of simple obedience to God's will, would that not include forgivness of sins and any other promise and benifit that came along with it?
I believe that it definatly would.
Un-be-known to the elders, She still considered her first baptism the real deal (obedience to God) The second baptism was just an entrance requirement to a certain congregation. She was fine with that - I WASN'T.
This is the part where I fear I may lose you:
If someone accepts the invitation and call of Jesus Christ (belief), turns their life over to him (repentance and confession), and out of simple trust, faith and obedience trys their best to follow his will for their life, then they are saved. Even if they mess up the details.
Does this include baptism? ABSOLUTELY!!!!! But it includes so much more...
Baptism is a part (but only a part) of the salvation process.
I know that I am not making a very good case for my beliefs here, I have offered no scriptures. Hopefully as our discussion continues I will be able to share some scriptures with you that may help explain some of my thinking.
Thanks again for your patience and time.
Gary
Good morning!Got that coffee ready? Here's my thoughts. I 100% agree that baptism is only a part of salvation but i do believe it is essential,and is no more essential than living a christian life after baptism. My thoughts on the lady--Where i see failure is that the elders should have lovingly sit with this lady and told her that as leaders of that congregation they had an awesome responsibility to help her attain eternal life, and that as elders in a church of Christ, that meant staying as close to doing things as they did them in the Bible. We have the words written in Acts that were spoken when baptizing, and if we continue to use them today, we can never doubt that we did it the right way. And they should have explained that the Lord adds us to His Church but only after we fulfil our part. When Uzzah touched the ark, it seems so unfair to us that he was punished but I believe God to be just as firm today in what he tells us as then. Our God is not a vicious man waiting to strike but a loving God who gave us a book to live by and expects no nonsense. His Son was no less to him than our children are to us.
Anonymous,
Yes, The coffee is ready :)
Great discussion!
Sorry, but this one got a little long - you may need a book marker.
A quick story:
Have you ever heard of Dr Gene Scott? He was an old TV preacher, a really eccentric old guy who used to smoke cigars and cuss while he was preaching from his easy chair. He was really a brilliant Greek scholar who did most of that stuff for theatrics and to get peoples attention. Anyway, I watched one night as his church (a pretty rough biker type crowd) had a baptism service. They quoted all of the right scriptures, said all of the right things, and did everything just like I had always been taught. Trust me when I say that their worship style, beliefs, and conduct were not what you would be comfortable with. But, they did baptism right. If one of these people ever came to your church, and wanted to be a member, would you have them do it again?
The lady in question did baptism right. She acted out of simple trust and obedience. Why would anyone ever question that? The answer in this case was obvious. It goes much deeper than the subject of baptism. It goes right down to the false belief that there is only one true church - and we’re it.
In all honesty, even if she would have given the elders the answers they were looking for, and used words like “remission of sins” and “rising to walk in newness of life“, etc… they still would have rejected her baptism. Simply saying the right words (like those in Acts) may indeed get you added to the Lord’s church, but if you happen to do it in a Baptist, Methodist, or Presbyterian church building it will not get you into a Church of Christ.
I don’t mean to be offensive here, I really don’t. I just reread the last paragraph and it reads a lot stronger than it was written.
You mentioned the story of Ussah. Have you ever read the story of Hezekiah in II Chronicles 30?
In attempting to restore the Temple, and celebrate the Passover, Hezekiah and all the people did everything wrong. They took the Passover in the wrong month, they were not clean according to the Law, yet they took the Passover anyway. After reading the story of Ussah you would expect God to strike them all dead.
But Hezekiah prayed for them and asked God to pardon them because their hearts were in the right place - they were trying to do God’s will - they just messed it all up. Not only did God not strike them dead, he healed them and blessed them for their efforts.
My point is this: God’s family is much bigger than the Church of Christ. Yes, there is only one church. Everyone who is saved is a part of that one church - regardless of the name on the door. It is all about faith in Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross for us. It is not about who answered all of the question correctly and followed the pattern the closest.
Even our righteousness is like filthy rags before God.
Thanks Gary! I agree. For me, I cannot remember a defining moment where I can say, "On August 25th 200? I was saved." It truly was a process.
My 4 yr old just made a profession of her faith of giving her life to Christ. I know there will be many, many people who question this coming from such a young child. She isn't ready for baptism b/c, well, she's afraid of her head under the water. We're encouraging her, but also waiting for her to be ready.
She's in love with our Savior and that's all I care about right now.
II chronicles: But don't you think they messed it up out of ignorance and of course until we understand God will forgive us. We have a very simple and clear plan to live by today. I have never condemmed a church in my life because of its name but there are many things beside baptism that denominations believe that i feel they are misinterpreting. For instance the taking of Communion maybe only once a month or the role of women in the worship. These things are clear to me but i understand maybe not to someone else. Thats where i believe you don't condemn but you teach. You don't go into aggreement with them but you teach with all the kindness and understanding you can "muster up". It kinda leads me back to my original question. If a person in the Church of Christ changes his or her mind about their beliefs and realizes maybe the baptist or methodist are more on track, why would that person not just start attending at one of those. I agree this is a great discussion and hope that my wording makes sense.We might have to disagree on following that pattern tho because i'm gonna stick as tight as i can to it.
This is only concerning a quote from Gary, not the lady or the situation in question.
I quote Gary five comments above this one.
“If someone accepts the invitation and call of Jesus Christ (belief), turns their life over to him (repentance and confession), and out of simple trust, faith and obedience trys their best to follow his will for their life, then they are saved. Even if they mess up the details.
Does this include baptism? ABSOLUTELY!!!!! But it includes so much more...
Baptism is a part (but only a part) of the salvation process”
Matthew 5: 17-19 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
James 2:8-10 “If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.”
1 peter 3:20, 21 “who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ”
There are other things required of a person to gain salvation, but at what point is a person saved? Baptism. What now saves us? Baptism. And the “details” are just as important as any other part of the law. One must know the “details” and do them correctly according to Matthew 5 and James 2.
K!!!!!!!
Oh how I've missed you. :)
I want to respond, but i have to work 12 hours the next two days.
Be patient with me and I will get back to you.
Gary
Anonymous,
Sorry it took me so long to get back. It seems we are both working twelve hour days.
You said:
"You don't go into agreement with them but you teach with all the kindness and understanding you can "muster up".
AMEN. But, you can't muster up much kindness and understanding with someone you do not consider a sincere seeker. And sincere seekers are loved and accepted by our God. And, If they are sincere seekers God will because of his love for them, find a way to lead them to the point of salvation in his own time.
The on going argument about at what exact moment you become "Saved" is really pointless.
In my mind I can't imagine a God, who loved us enough to sacrifice his own son for us, taking pleasure in condemning us to an eternal hell because of a technicality.
I know others will say that ignorance is no excuse, and it's not. But, Love covers a multitude of sins - even ignorance.
I really want to talk about:Following the pattern and sticking to it as close as we can. But that one will have to wait.
thanks for the discussion
Gary.
Baptism = technicality?
Doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that God will take pleasure in condemnation, just says He will do it. "Narrow is the way and few there be that find it."
Gary, do you think baptism is or is not necessary for salvation? You use a lot of words to say nothing. If you really believe something say it, teach it, practice it, don't just ride the fence.
Dear Anonymous #2
It really doesn't matter what I think. I am no one of consequence. But, since you were kind enough to ask.....
I think simple trusting faith in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation. That of course involves a lot of things - a life time of things - I can't understand why you insist on arguing about only one of them.
It's not rocket science.
Don't say it's up in heaven and some one has to go up and get it down....
Don't say it is down in the depths of the sea and someone has to go down an bring it up....
(it's Romans 10:8 and following)
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:
(And what is that "Word Of Faith" that you have been proclaiming Paul?)
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved....
(That darned Paul.... He was such a liberal.....)
That first part of this passage happens to be a direct quote from Deuteronomy 30:11-15. Study them together, put them in proper context, and then tell me what you think it says.
Thanks for the challenge.
I worked all night so I will have to battle later. For now I'm going to bed....
Gary
Jesus said , I require mercy not sacrifice. Good discussion. We love you Gary, no matter how wrong you are(LOL)
Gary,this is the anonymous #1. I'm gonna be signing off now. While i don't think you will ever be persuaded back to the Church that I love,I will never be persuaded to turn from the faith and obedience that I feel is necessary for my salvation. I feel God's touch in my life every day. I'm glad we could have a discussion.I would still like to understand my question which started me writing in the first place, which is when you and many others started questioning your beliefs, why didn't you just attend a denomination rather than what some did by tearing up established congregations. I will have you and your family in my prayers. Finish that coffee
Anonymous #1
It has be nice. I have enjoyed the
conversation, and attitude.
I would never want to turn you from the church you love. That in a nut shell is my whole point. My ranting and raving has never meant to say that the church is wrong - it's not! It is simply to say that it is not the only one who is right.
Please come back again when things are quiet, and we will share more coffee and good conversation.
I will know it's you by the attitude
Anonymous #2 and all...
I win! my goal has never been to win the argument just to be loved. So thanks for that.
gary.
Gary, I don't drink coffee but what about lunch or a round of golf? -- The preacher your parents would love.
PS Just call the church office.
Preacher,
(If by chance it really is you)
Do you find the following qoute from my blog post offensive or acurate?
Who is really to blame?
Gary, of course. He left the faith. He caused division in the Lord's body. He followed false teachers and was led astray. He became a false teacher himself and led many others away from the one true church. The Bible teaches us to disfellowship, and have nothing to do with people like him. We are only being true to God's commands.
(If my parents ever moved to Columbia, I know a preacher that they would just love)
Sorry, I digress...
If by chance you find it offensive, then perhaps I have misjudged. If however you find it accurate and something you would agree with, then speak up. I'm listening.
Gary.
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